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Around SBN: 2012 Africa Cup Of Nations Final

Winning Isn't Everything, Is It?

Our good friend Thomas Atkins recently posted his findings on LPGA tournament winners (I was wondering what he'd been up to lately!).  It's so chock-full of information, your eyes might go blurry trying to bring it all in.  Now that mine have cleared up, I have a few comments I'd like to make on the conclusions he drew.

We've long known that the pool of talent on Tour has gotten deeper through the years and Thomas delivers even more evidence.  From only 30 regular touring professionals in the 1950s to 45 in the ‘60s and 80 in the ‘70s, there were 150 LPGA pros by 1983.  Of course the deepening of the pool didn't stop there, the Tour merely set that as the boundary because there aren't enough hours in the day to let 200-300 players get in 18 holes (maybe a July event in Anchorage could pull it off).  Since 1983, the number of professionals has continued to grow and only the top 150 get enough chances to play for us to consider them having played full schedules.  I don't know how many women touring professionals there are in the world today - Rolex ranks 700 of them but I wouldn't be surprised if there are more than 1000 - but the larger that number grows, the better the Top 150 get.  It is debatable how much better each section of the Top 150 gets as the pool grows larger (I believe most of the boost affects the bottom half of the group but all are boosted somewhat) but there is currently no evidence to the contrary.

Star-divide

I am not forgetting that the LPGA does not have the market cornered on the best 150 players in the world - certainly some of them are playing in Japan, Korea or Europe.  But even if I were to concede that 150 of the 200 best players in the world are LPGA members (it's more likely 150 of 180), the logic would still hold - that the larger the number of touring professionals, the greater the collective ability of any number of players at the top of that group.

Thomas obviously comprehends this logic in the historical sense but in the fourth paragraph of his post, he surprisingly abandons it:

Since the 1980's a top player has to have at least 10 wins....The 1990's produced only 4 players that have won at least 10 times and they averaged 36.5 wins per player....My conclusion is that the 1990's did not produce as many top players as should have been expected. When I calculated the top 50 LPGA players of all time, I found that there were less players from the 1990's than I expected. Winning or in reality a lack of winning is the reason. Annika Sorenstam, Karrie Webb, and Se Ri Pak all deserve to be in the LPGA Hall Of Fame, but a lack of top level competition certainly made it easier for them to win and obtain the required points.

After the number of Tour regulars topped out at 150 in 1983, he stopped adjusting his standard for the number of wins required by "top players".  I believe this is a big mistake.  The depth on Tour is surely greater now than it was in 1983 yet he is holding Paula Creamer and Mi Hyun Kim to the same standard as Jane Geddes.  In my yearly rankings Geddes only finished in the Top 10 three times in her career (she did rank #1 in 1987, albeit just barely).  So because she won 11 times in her career, she is a "top player" while Creamer with five Top 10 seasons and nine wins and Kim with seven Top 10s and eight wins are not?  I'm using my rating system which figures in much more than victories to make these comparisons but this isn't exactly apples and oranges.  And what about when Creamer collects her next win - why should she suddenly jump from "pretty good" to "top player" when it's obvious that she already is the latter?

I agree with Thomas that there appears to be a shortage of players whose careers began in the 1990s on the various "top players of alltime" lists.  I totally disagree that there was a shortage of top level competition in the late ‘90s and early ‘00s.  Using my rankings and starting with 1998 - the first year that Sorenstam, Webb and Pak were all regulars - the other top level competition was Donna Andrews, Liselotte Neumann, Brandie Burton, Pat Hurst and Juli Inkster.  The next year it was Inkster, Dottie Pepper and Meg Mallon.  In 2000 it was Inkster, Mallon and Hurst.  In 2001 it was Rosie Jones and Lorie Kane.  In 2002 it was Inkster and Mi Hyun Kim.  Just because some of those players (in this case, the ones who began their careers in the ‘90s) haven't gone on to HOF careers or win enough tournaments (yet) to surpass a certain level doesn't mean they weren't top-level competitors in the year in question.  Thomas states that it's too early make a call on the players whose careers began in the 2000s but I can tell you this right now - if he sticks with his 10-victories-make-a-top-player standard for the 2000s and the 2010s, the 1990s group won't look bad at all.

In the comments of his post, Thomas confirms that he values victories as the most important factor in rating players.  So do I.  My system uses five categories to rate players and a victory helps a player's standing more than any other single component.  I think the difference here is that he uses victory totals as the overriding factor in rating players and I believe that stance, while widely supported, has its drawbacks.  Using victories alone to rate players would tell you that Se Ri Pak has been a Top 10 player in 2010.  Suzann Pettersen didn't win any events in 2008 and hasn't won so far in 2010.  This method would tell you that Louise Friberg in 2008 and Pak in 2010 were better players than Suzann in those years.  Compare the rest of their records in those seasons and you'll quickly see why I disagree with using only victories to judge ability.  I could cite a dozen other examples off the top of my head where this conventional wisdom fails.

I don't know why the 1990s players as a group aren't well represented on the historical lists of alltime greats.  Maybe they tended to have shorter careers.  Maybe some of them (Kimmie?  Hurst?  Hetherington?) aren't done winning yet.  Maybe they tended to lose time for medical reasons at a greater rate than in other eras.  Maybe it was just dumb luck.  It wasn't because the Tour took a five-year dip in top-level ability from 1998-2002 and we certainly shouldn't diminish the accomplishments of Sorenstam, Webb and Pak because of it. 

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Sorenstam, Webb, Pak...

…will probably be seen as even more amazing in retrospect when we realize how much air (wins) they sucked out of the room at the height of their careers. Their lead chase pack not only had to beat each of the 3 of them, but each other as well other players who happened to get hot—every week they competed. Not very easy to do.

Also consider that you have to go back to the 1950s to see the average wins among those who exceeded 10 go higher than in the ‘90s, as well as the differential between their wins average and the average winner’s wins average. That’s some kind of dominance when there were 5 times as many LPGA members in the late ’90s and early ’00s as in the ’50s.—and there were nearly 2 decades of improvement among those players from the 1st time the tour got that big.

So even within the terms of his logic (which you are right to question), his chart lends support for the notion that Sorenstam, Webb, and Pak were giants in their era.

by The Constructivist on Aug 4, 2010 6:01 PM PDT reply actions  

Maybe some unique aspects of the 90s have been overlooked...

Like the equipment and fitness revolutions. On the PGA Tour, many players were slow to pick up on the new technology and training regimens, and they struggled because of it while Tiger excelled. This time period was also “short” of dominant players other than Tiger. Could the same thing have happened on the LPGA?

I don’t know about Pak and Webb, but I know Annika was experimenting. I’ve seen stats showing how rapidly her driving distance improved as she became dominant… and at least some of that was ball and club technology. (For a simple example, she went to a 47-inch driver.) Add her workout routine to the technology, coupled with her drive to win, and you can explain a lot of her dominance.

HoundDog, have you considered checking some of the stats during the 90s and early 2000s to look for drastic changes in these areas? They might indicate technology and training changes made by those players — for better or for worse. (Bad choices might have hurt their performance.) If you find some rapid improvements with Pak and ‘Webb (I know you’ll find them with Annika) but not with the other top players, you may have your answer.

Mike Southern
www.ruthlessgolf.com

by Ruthless Mike on Aug 4, 2010 9:03 PM PDT reply actions  

would if I could, Mike

The stats that would show those differences (driving distance, etc.) are only available at LPGA.com back to 2004 and I haven’t been able to find them anywhere else. If you know where they might be found, please tell me.

I sort-of agree with TC’s theory that Sorenstam, Webb and Pak were creating some kind of statistical illusion with their dominance but I need to develop a way to demonstrate it before I’ll adopt it as fact.

by hound dog on Aug 5, 2010 6:48 AM PDT up reply actions  

When you step outside the ropes, we all know that winning isn’t everything. (which is a sad commentary on our professional athletes playing for so much money that they can live very well without winning)

But wouldn’t you prefer 150 golfers teeing it up every week going IN with that “winning is everything” mindset ? I don’t want 120 of those 150 just plodding their way around hoping to make the cut and make a few bucks.

I want #150 stepping up to the first tee looking #1 dead in the eye and saying “you might be #1, but you’ll have to go through me to prove it this week.”

"this ball will fit in that fairway"

by courtgolf on Aug 5, 2010 4:22 PM PDT reply actions  

Just got back from my mom's 90th birthday celebration...

no internet connection, so now I can defend my position.

 Victories are the most important factor in my calculations but they are not the overriding factor. For example, Alice Miller won 8 times with 1 major victory and ranked 117 on my All Time Best list and Laura Baugh ranked 101 with no victories. Laura Baugh was a much more consistant player and my highest rated player with no victories and better than over 100 players who have won and are qualified to be ranked. (Players must have at least 100 qualified tournaments to be ranked, so some winners not yet ranked). Suzann Pettersen was ranked 64th on my list last year and I expect her to be in the 45th position or better in ranking after this year, due in part to all those second place finishes this year and in part to having played more tournaments (minimum 150 qualified tournaments to eliminate calculated penalty for short career). Louise Friberg is not on track to be anywhere near the top 50.

I was looking at the top 100 list as well as the number of victories. So I was looking at approximately the top 10 percent of the players in my rating database and approximately the top 5 percent in number of victories (10 wins). I think I can make a list of more players from the 2000s decade that will probably make the top 50 ranking than will be in the Top 50 players in the ranking from the 1990s decade. My mistake was that I did not emphasize that I was looking at the top 100 ranking as well as the victories. I was trying to get the post in before my trip (should have waited).
 
 With Sorenstam ranked #1 and Webb ranked #7, I am definately not diminishing their accomplishments.

 There have always been players who suffered injuries and illness that has probably lowered their ranking and decreased posssible victories. It would be hard to show any decade was affected more than another.

 I cannot assume that I need to lower the threshold for number of victories. At the end of the 2010-2019 decade, the data for the 2000-2009 decade players will show if it needs to be adjusted.

I did not abandon the idea that the competition gets stronger each decade, the data for the players from the 1990s decade just does not fit the expected pattern.

by tatkins on Aug 11, 2010 6:25 PM PDT reply actions  

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